Monday, September 30, 2013

Who "Owns" the Woods, Indeed?

In a way, this posting is an Open Letter to DNV Mayor and Council, and DNV Parks/Permits:

It seems every day someone is running around the forest somewhere on the North Shore (mainly inside the Fromme and Seymour areas) wielding what some folk would consider to be weapons. (mountain bikers jokingly call those axes, Pulaskis, McClaskis, chainsaws, machetes, etc. they wield in the woods: "weapons of mass destruction" on the forest environment. On this point, I agree!).

There is suppose to be some permit system for all these folks trail building these days, on both NSMBA/DNV official trail days, and the many unofficial trail days. A few years back, Council had directed Parks Staff to supply me with a list of permits. They never complied. I asked again, and --- Nada! Zilch! Zip!

So nothing more was really thought of it, until this recent public posting on the NSMBA Facebook page popped up, which brings us back to the $60,000 Question (actually, the figure is closer to $1 million...) 

"Who has a permit to do work on the trails...and what are the terms (location, times, constraints, works allowed, etc. and by whom and how?) of those permits?" 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151647956595036&set=a.369819280035.152943.269531710035&type=1&theater

Here is an excerpt: (you can read the above link for more, plus comments, for more clarity) In case this post suddenly "disappears", I have made a copy...
------------------------------------------


With the heavy rain it was a classic Shore day, dark and gloomy. I was standing in the middle of the trail, wrestling with a couple of options for a difficult section, when I hear a shout from a distance.

Guy: "Hey there!"

I look up, and there's a middle aged guy standing about 60 feet up the trail from me.

Me (still focused on my trail dilemma): "Hey."

Guy (after a long pause): "What are you doing with that axe in your hand?"

Me (still looking off into the forest): "It's not an axe. It's a pulaski."

Guy (after a long pause): "Why are you up here?"

I look up at the guy, a little annoyed that he's interrupting me in the middle of my train of thought.

Me: "I'm up here clearing drains and looking at ways to fix the trail."

Now that I've lost my focus, I decide to walk down the trail a couple feet and clear a nearby drain that is overflowing.

Guy (still standing 60 feet away): "Do you have a permit for that?"

Me (swinging the pulaski and clearing the drain): "Yes. I'm actually the president of the NSMBA."
 
Guy: "OK, cause I'm really worried about how all these trails are getting trashed."  (con't)

-----------------------------------------------------------
So am I.

I'm really worried about how these trails are getting trashed, also, from both the mountain bike riding/racing, and the mtber trail building "repair and maintenance" ruse. But who has got a permit? among all these trail building mountain bikers  wielding "weapons of mass destruction", like they are digging in their own private sand box, day in, day out? People like "Dave" have the right to ask that question, and receive answers from the municipal public land managers. So would I. Could Mayor and Council once again direct the right parties to answer these questions? 

More than a few people would like to know...For public safety, most of all. How much of this work is still considered to be "unsanctioned" work, I wonder? I would like some real answers from DNV, for once.  Thank you.

45 comments:

Mocrael said...

You can read more about mountain bikers and public land issues, here:

"Who Owns a Trail?"

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Who-owns-a-trail-2013.html
and

"This Land is Whose Land?"

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/This-Land-is-Whose-Land-mitchell-scott-2012.html

(copy and paste links)

Anonymous said...

If a biker falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear, do they make a sound?

Anonymous said...

Like Lemmings going off a cliff:

http://youtu.be/O46HJbbIWlA

Lol!

John Sharpe said...


Based on the comments on the FB link provided in the post, many are supportive of the trails being 'fixed' from the heavy rains. I've been a mountain biker for 20 years and in my opinion common sense would be to not use the Fromme and Seymour trails during the winter months. I do not use them during this period myself. This should just be an honour system or if that isn't practical then DNV closure of at least the most sensitive and steep trail systems during the winter season. Wouldn't that solve much of the erosion issues, give the trails a better chance to recover, and reduce maintenance?

Mocrael said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mocrael said...

I agree, John. I suggested a seasonal closure of trails to mountain bikes, as compromise, near the beginning, but it was not considered by DNV. Mountain bikers like the NSMBA ilk want it all!

It seems that "mudbogging" is fun sport for mountain bikers to engage in (even in light of the Mudbogging Law in BC, against the motorized off-roading in such conditions) Go figure?

I don't know how much success we will have trying to suggest this common sense idea, again, when just the other day, I watched an after-school mountain bike "kiddie camp" exiting Mountain View Park during the heavy downpour we had yesterday.

I also noticed lots of cars with bike racks parked at Dempsey/Braemar.

Common sense does not seem to be a "gift" many extreme mountain bikers have, John. The NSMBA cried the blues a while back, that if they could not ride during the rain they would hardly get a chance to ride at all. Sounds like a great idea to me, in light of all the environmental damage this group is inflicting on the forest with their indiscriminate riding habits and many, many trail days.

The sad fact is DNV allows it to proliferate, and the mountain bikers are teaching our children that is is an okay thing to do, damaging the trails during inclement weather.

The NSMBA has a lot to answer to, but too many politicians, public land managers, and conservation groups are too timid to confront them. BOO!

Anonymous said...

I was brought up in Lynn Valley and hiked the trails above the top of Mntn. Hwy in my teens. Once into the woods it was dead quiet and I was, quite likely, the only person in the woods for some miles. Sometimes I would take a pack and sleep overnight in the forest. Silence. I used to wake up before the sun came up just to watch it rise over Mt. Seymour and slowly illuminate the woods around me inhaling the magic smell of the moist forest.
Loved it. A beautiful memory from half a century ago when I was 17.
Barrelling along on a mountain bike just doesn't hold the same wonder for me but each to his own.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:13:00 pm,

Lived on the North Shore much of my life. Always considered it a magical place as well.

I hike the trails locally these days such as Lost Lake and enjoy the quiet as well. I hiked up to Lake Elsay and Mt. Patton recently. Beautiful, peaceful places, glad we still have them.

Population growth and pressure on the more accessible trails has changed much of that peacefullness. There are more people wanting to do different activities in the woods hence multi-use trails are the order of the day.

"Barreling along on a mountain bike" doesn't hold the same wonder for me either even though I appreciate the adrenaline and fun aspect that they experience.

Enjoy the woods. Find yor peace.

Anonymous said...

Wouldn't hold your breath for a response from any one on council. The only councillor I've seen write any comments on this forum is ML. I don't think they regard it enough as a place to debate any public policies on the use of DNV land or any issues. I wouldn't if I were an elected official.

Mocrael said...

That "balance between recreation and conservation" has yet to be achieved inside DNV. I don't think there is any will in DNV to diligently **contain, and properly control** mountain biking. It is everywhere, except in the much higher places, where not every person has the ability to hike on such difficult terrain.

A mountain biker's "peace" and a hiker's peace are very different things. Multi-use trails (Hike/Bike) remain dangerous, and there needs to be separation between the two. This is why less trails, and containment of mountain biking to a specific area would work well.

The present situation is out of control, because our public land managers have no control over it. They pretty much have given "permits" to the mice to guard the cheese. And that is what has resulted in the NSMBA's over-blown sense of self-entitlement to abuse the forests.

The mountain biker status quo hasn't really changed much from its "renegade" days, a few years ago. And that is not a good thing for the ongoing integrity of our forests' ecological diversity and balance. Something has got to give!

Barry Rueger said...

Let's get realistic about who uses North Shore trails, and who maintains them. My company is one of several dozen that does commercial dog walking on the North Shore. We hike the trails above West Vancouver, but our experiences are the same as above North Van.

Who uses the trail networks above the North Shore?

Number one, by a LARGE margin are the commercial dog walking companies. We're on the trails several hours a day, five days a week, fifty-two weeks of the year. The commercial dog walkers also contribute several tens of thousands of dollars each year to the government in permits and fees.

Number two are the cyclists, from the first day when the snow clears, until it's too deep to ride.

Number three are a handful of people who walk their dogs or hike on a more or less daily basis. By a "handful" of people I mean perhaps a hundred on any given day between Caulfeild and Lynn Canyon. If you spend enough time on the trails you pretty much know them, their dogs, their friends, and their friends' dogs.

Finally, a far distant fourth, are the day-hikers; the recreational people. If I see two random day-hikers in a day it's surprising. Aside from long-weekend Friday afternoons these people are as rare as hens' teeth. And of course once the rains or snow settle in they just disappear.

I'm not saying that they don't exist, just that they represent a very small part of the trail using community.

So, who is doing the lion's work in maintaining trails?

Again, no-one, and I mean no-one does more work than the cycling community. Hands down, they are the first out in the spring to work on trail upgrades and maintenance, and the only people actively working to expand and improve the trail network.

Plus they actually know one hell of a lot about constructing trails that protect the environment. In fact our local trail makers are considered among the best in North America and are asked to visit other communities to teach people how to build trails.

If you spend a lot of time on the trails, you'll have seen some of the old, abandoned bike trails from ten or fifteen years back.

You can't compare these to the trails being designed and built today - the knowledge and skills, and the dedication to protecting the environment, have all improved dramatically since the early days of North Shore mountain biking.

Besides the bikers, the Districts of North and West Vancouver spend a very small amount on trail maintenance. In West Van this amounts to two people each summer for about a month who work rebuilding a few bridges. Sadly this is desperately inadequate - if you follow the Skyline Trail you'll see that much of it is just crumbling away. Ballantree Trail isn't much better.

The dog walkers also contribute to keeping the trails in shape. Some of us will carry in a handsaw to remove particularly annoying fallen trees during the winter. Others will stop during their hikes to make small repairs to bridges and structures.

We also pick up the candy wrappers and pop cans left behind by the day hikers - as well as the dog poop that is scattered about after every summer long weekend. Apparently the day-hiking community hasn't figured out that picking up after your dog is a good idea, even if you're on a trail.

The one group that I have never seen doing trail maintenance: the hiking community. Not once.

There are literally dozens of bridges and trail sections above West Vancouver that are in desperate need of repair. Are the day-hikers lining up groups to do this work? Are they raising funds?

For the record, I've found the bikers above Ballantree and Brothers Creek to be mostly very nice, friendly, and careful.

They understand that we're all sharing the trails, and go to considerable lengths to make sure that everyone has a good time.

Of course, I approach them with a big "Hello!" instead of growling "Get off of my mountain!!"

Barry Rueger said...

Anyone with an interest might want to attend the NSMBA's Trail building workshops this weekend:

http://nsmba.ca/2013-north-shore-trailbuilder-academy

Anonymous said...

Barry I have lived on the NS for over 50 years. I am a day hiker. I take offence to your stereotyping but given the rhetoric and BS that you constantly spew on this blog it comes as no surprise. Take your ass kissing elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

Have to agree with 4:17. Same ol' arrogant B.R. Thinks he knows everything. I am a day hiker as well sometimes overnight and I pack out what I always pack in so I take offense as well.I am very concious of the environment. If there is any truth to what B.R. says it's probably because the hikers are intimidated by the bikers and the swarms of dog walkers which have also taken over. The trails are no longer hiker friendly. What a bunch of generalization crap on the hiking set B.R.!

Anonymous said...

Not 4:17, 4:23

Jason Fuller said...

To those who feel the need to backlash against Barry's post: I can see right through your knee-jerk offense taken. All trail users certainly deserve an equal opportunity to enjoy the trails, but mountain bikers do almost all the damage BUT they do almost all the repair. Please don't deny this fact without having actually experienced all the work that mountain bikers have done in just the past couple years. There are a lot of riders who dedicate almost all their spare time to caring for our trail network, and it's very disrespectful to ignore their efforts.

We all love these mountains. We are all on the same team.

Also, I can't not point out the fact that a two foot wide path through the forest is never, ever going to be an "environmental impact" you need to concern yourself about. Stressing out about the displacement of a few frogs by moving a few rocks while billions of gallons of oil are pulled out of the ground and billions of gallons of toxicity is put in its place... well, it's just really poor focus of your energy. Speaking of energy, if you are heating a 3000 sq ft house on a half-acre of developed land, please do not talk to me about conservation. You don't understand it.

Regardless of whether you're on foot, on bike, or on horse - the fact that you're using the forest is critical in preserving it as a forest.

Jason Fuller said...

PS: There are hundreds of kilometres of amazing hiking trails in the area that mountain bikes are not allowed on. I fully agree and appreciate that a good hiking trail and a good biking trail are very different things, and mountain bike traffic will wreck a good hiking trail. I highly value the diversity of trail users, but absolutely feel that some segregation - ie, hiking only trails and biking only tails - is necessary for everyone to enjoy their time in the forest.

Anonymous said...

I'm am a regular user of the trails, and mountain bikers have always been the most pleasant people I've met. I have the utmost respect for the people going out in less than favorable conditions to maintain the trails for everyone to use. They are taken for granted! The trails are meant to be shared and enjoyed by everyone. PERIOD. Saying that mountain bikers should be limited to when and where they are aloud to ride is just ridiculous. Without the mountain biking community and organizations like the NSMBA, the quality and quantity of the trails would be nowhere near as nice as they are today. We should be greatly thanking them! The thoughts expressed here against the practices of the NSMBA are pure rubbish. Mountain bike trails are WAAAAY more friendly to the environment than a horse trail is. There's no argument about that. Leave a mountain bike trail alone for long enough and Mother Nature reclaims it like it has never even been touched.

- A.K.

Kevin Johnstone said...

The landowner or taxpayers own the land, depending. We just have to make the right decisions and play nice with stakeholders so we can keep building and riding and living out our passion.

Anonymous said...

How many hikers ever help out on trail maintenance? Zero. There has been another group forgotten here, the trail runners. We Love the trail building, keep it up!

In other news.... The majority of rescues on the Shore are idiot day hikers. We groom all these trails and they still get lost. Don't forget your gators.....

Dorks

Mocrael said...

Wow! A lot of people are drinking the NSMBA's Koolaid. Does anyone ever stop to think how much damage is being done off-trail by the mountain bikers digging pits for "gold dirt" and rocks out of the ground to "repair, maintain" and build new trails because they have done so much damage to the trails by their indiscriminate riding habits, in the first place.

Stop taking this very destructive off-road group's activities at face value, and look at the reality of what is actually happening inside the forest. The NSMBA have successfully pulled the wool over everybody's eyes.

If all you are seeing, or choosing to see, is the finished product, then you aren't looking deep enough. Sure there are bigger problems in the world, but that doesn't mean we should just wave off the "smaller" ones, especially those occurring in our own backyards. The NSMBA is not doing anyone any favours, and their trail building and riding activities are far from sustainable as it gets. This is why they need to be contained and controlled. It isn't just frogs affected by these extreme dirt bikers, but more wildlife. Night riding has got to be the most anti-social thing bikers do in groups. Some of these bikers use up to three very bright, road illegal headlamps to light up the trails. If these headlamps blind drivers on the road, what effect do you think this has on the nocturnal wildlife? It is just plain common sense thinking, folks.

And, Barry Reuger. You love dogs, or you would not have a dog walking business. I love dogs too. What do you think about mountain bikers dragging their dogs (even the "toy" size ones - Bichon, etc.) up and down trails,structures, etc. at high speed in all sorts of weather, and even at night time? Many of these rides go on for a couple hours or more...The dogs can end up injured, limping out of the woods, and usually end up with early onset arthritis from the kind of "trail running" the mountain bikers take their pooches on. Dogs in summer end up barely keeping up with their riders, tongues hanging to the ground, yet those loyal pets keep on running --- barely. It is cruel and sick!

There is so much wrong with the uncontained and uncontrolled mountain biking status quo, the NSMBA keeps fighting for, I am amazed how many people keep applauding these scofflaws (yes, even the NSMBA still scoffs at common civility, and being told the word, NO!)

But, as long as few people dare question what mountain bikers are doing to our forests, the slow destruction of the forest continues. Don't just take my word for it. Find out for yourself the minute you challenge a mountain biker, by asking him/her what he/she is doing in the woods at night, or in the pouring rain, etc. They challenged seasonal closures. They challenged night riding. And they won, via use of anti-social behaviour.

I saw it all happen during public process when they swarmed, intimidated, bullied and threatened those who would dare oppose them. Many of those people were neighbours of mine, who either walked away, or later moved away, to avoid further confrontation with the mountain bikers.

Many mountain bikers with even an ounce of common sense will not join the NSMBA because of their extremist ideas as to who "owns" the woods.

But, I can't twist people's arms to convince them. It may take a bit longer before people begin to understand the toll mountain biking activities are taking on our forests. But, by then, if it hasn't already happened, it will be too late to do anything about it. It probably is too late already, looking at how many "trail days", sanctioned and unsanctioned are going on.

"One hand clapping" for the NSMBA. They have pulled the biggest scam on most of us. The NSMBA are leaving us with crumbs, and calling it cake!

Sean said...

Do you realize that hiking trails are built in a very similar fashion to many mountain bike trails? Do you think hiking trails just magically appear without having to do some damage to the environment? All trails, for whatever use they are made, effect the environment in some way or another. The key is minimizing the amount of damage. That is what the NSMBA has been working hard to do.

There is also a difference between random independent trail builders who just dig wherever with little regard for the environment, and a reputable organization such as the NSMBA. The NSMBA have procedures and guidelines to protect the environment as do the reputable organizations that build and maintain hiking trails.

Anonymous said...

Interesting read... spoken like a true NIMBY.

There is always going to be an argument and tension between those who want to keep everyone off the trails, and even out of the woods and those who go out there to enjoy nature. Be it by hiking, riding, trail running, dog walking, bird watching etc. The reality is there is room for everyone.

To throw out the argument that "mountain biking is more damaging than hiking" is just not true. In the area of the North Shore mountains it is a matter of density and ease of access that is the issue, not one activity vs. the other. Both are damaging, but it is not necessarily factual that one is worse than the other. There have been MANY studies on this, read a few maybe?

http://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-science/natural-resource-impacts-mountain-biking

My favorite part...
_________________________________
Conclusion

Mountain biking, like other recreation activities, does impact the environment. On this point, there is little argument. But people often debate whether or not mountain bikes cause more damage to trails, vegetation, and wildlife than other forms of recreation such as hiking and horseback riding.

A body of empirical, scientific evidence now indicates that mountain biking is no more damaging than other forms of recreation, including hiking. Thus, managers who prohibit bicycle use (while allowing hiking or equestrian use) based on impacts to trails, soils, wildlife, or vegetation are acting without sound, scientific backing.

A land manager's decision to prohibit one user group on the basis of providing a particular type of experience for another group may or may not be justified by evidence provided by social studies, as the wisdom of prohibiting a particular user group in order to satisfy the desires of another is a matter for politics rather than science.

_________________________________

I am not here to start an argument, quite the contrary. Having said that I am certain beyond any doubts that my comments and this post will get bagged on like all the others that do not support your opinion. Should trail maintenance be managed in some way, yes. Should it be micro managed, well I seriously doubt that ANY municipality has the resources to do this. They are lucky to be able to work with groups who care and want sustainable access and are willing to work with them as best they can.

The NSMBA does volunteer work for the good of the trails as do other groups all over the province, remember this is NOT just a North Shore issue, people ride/hike/etc everywhere. These groups all volunteer their time and energy to help maintain sustainable access to trails for everyone. I myself have worked hundreds of hours on trails and in the office on trail building, maintenance, license agreements, access advocacy, promoting the sport you name it. It is hard, but so worth it.

Personally, I support trail access and people getting out in the world. Dont care if they are on bikes or on foot. Do it right, share the trails and share the work maintaining the environment. I would LOVE to see the local hiking groups out on trail days here or there working side by side with the other user groups maintaining and building new trails.

With the proper permits in place of course.

Anonymous said...

so much for credibility of this site. If I want to read some North Vancouver fear mongering I know where to come.

Anonymous said...

There's a riding area in WA State near Arlington known as the Pilchuck Tree Farm. It's a great place to ride, but from October 1 to April 1 it is closedto riding because of the rainy season. It is private property and a business, but they close it because the of trail damage during the wet weather. No they don't have an'NSMBA' to fix the trails over the Winter, but if you think about it if the trails get that wrecked why not just leave them alone in the first place so they don't need to be 'fixed'. Apples vs. oranges? I think not, just common sense and not so much selfishness.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:05pm -

"If a journalist writes an erroneous article, you can send a letter to the editor. If a businessman does not know what is going on, he will probably lose money and his job as well. But, oddly enough, academics can make mistakes, gross and manifest ones, time and again, and get away with it. For they operate on the basis of peer review. Once the overall community has been converted to a given position, they regularly coopt members with the same views. And thus there is no one to criticize them. Indeed, the critics are neatly kept out of the academic establishment by those who are already in it." -Jon Woronoff

Mountain bikers have turned to scientific research to try to make mountain biking seem less harmful, and in particular, to studies comparing it with hiking. Although they have interpreted this data as indicating that mountain biking impacts are no greater than those of hiking, a more careful look at these studies leads to the conclusion that mountain biking impacts are actually several times greater than those of hikers.

Some of the important characteristics of mountain biking that have been ignored in these IMBA approved studies are: speed; distance traveled; the increase in number of visitors that bikes allow; increased trail-building, with its attendant habitat destruction; the displacement of soil (other than downhill); the killing of roots and soil organisms and ecosystems; most effects on wildlife; manner of riding (skidding, braking, acceleration, turning, and representativeness); tire tread; and noise (bikes are relatively quiet, but a rattling chain may be perceived as "alien" to natural surroundings).

In addition, measuring techniques need to be described in more detail, "blind" measurements should be considered (where the measurers don't know what treatment they are measuring)and controls need to be added.

Anonymous said...

This blog is a joke. "North Vancouver Politics" is VERY misleading. More like "North Vancouver Grumpy Old People Complaining". Think making a blog will change anything? The answer is "No". Instead of whining to the internet on a very unprofessional blog, just stop. Trails and mountain biking in general won't ever stop, it will only continue to expand. Just give up, your arguments are garbage. Instead of worrying about a nonexistent problem, just relax. You'll be able to enjoy Beautiful BC way more than your previous grumpy self.

NSX Comp said...

This is mountain biking:

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Top-100-Photos-of-the-Year-50-1-2012.html

(And the mtb videos all glorify this style of riding)

Does it look like they give a damn about the environment? This is all you really need to know.

If you like what you see, then nothing I say will change your mind.

If you don't like what you see, then speak up! Otherwise, the mountain biking mayhem continues, and our forests' ecological viability will suffer. It is already pretty far gone.

It is hard to believe that "TD Friends of the Environment" support this kind of activity in the forests as an "environmental" cause. If they support the NSMBA's trail "fixing", then they also support the sport's antics in the woods. You cannot separate riding and trail building. They go together in the mountain biking cult. But corporations are undiscerning entities.

Anonymous said...

The photos in the Top 100 Photos of the Year article are amazing. If you scrolled through the photos and didn't even think for a second "DAMN the skill of the riders and photographers are fuuuuckin' sick!" then I legitimately feel sorry for you. Look at picture #36. I'll bet that only a few select people have ever ridden that bobsled track. The amount of money it must have taken to build it, not to mention THE LARGE AMOUNT OF LAND CLEARED TO BUILD IT ON. Why aren't you guys bitching about that? Probably because the government doesn't give 2 shits about what you think so you make a sad attempt to bully the smaller NSMBA since they have more power to stop these things, unlike you sitting at home on your computers. These photographers don't want to take pictures of boring things. That's why it's often shown of people ripping up berms. Not everyone rides like this, and a lot of times after they're done photographing they'll go back and fix up parts of the trails they've ripped up to make these awesome pictures.

Barry Rueger said...

In the interest of full disclosure I should note that although I don't own a bicycle, and consequently don't ride the trails, my nephew does.

ON A UNICYCLE.

Anonymous said...

Ouch! The poor family jewels.

Anonymous said...


Welcome to all of the NSMBA members, we would love to have you participate in more topics on here. We are not all grumpy old men. When this site is healthy with lots of contributors, it can be an effective clearinghouse of information and great place to hone arguments.

Regarding mountain biking, I am not a biker, but I fully support the North Shore being a recreational paradise for the lower mainland. When I hike I enjoy the peace and quiet and am not offended when I hear a mountain biker coming down the hill.

About 35,000 acres of the 945,000 acres in BC is developed (3.7%). We have plenty of space.

Mocrael said...

Yes, Anon 10:56am, the NSMBA is already discussing this post on their Facebook page...(a few of these comments sound like veiled threats -- not unusual, coming out of the "extreme end" of mountain biking.) Wonderful people DNV chooses to partner with...for sure.

Here is a glimpse (with many comments sounding a lot like Anon 3:13pm's)

NSMBA - North Shore Mountain Bike Association shared a link.
October 3

An interesting read, inspired by President Mathew Bond's recent FB post. Big thanks to some perspective and support from Barry Ruegel. Who owns the woods indeed...http://www.northvancouverpolitics.com/2013/09/who-owns-woods-indeed.html

North Vancouver Politics.com: Who "Owns" the Woods, Indeed?
www.northvancouverpolitics.com


Top Comments
13 people like this.

Craig Krause: Why feed the trolls?
October 3 at 10:10pm via mobile

Lubo Blazek: Hello Mocrasi ,have you realized that closing trails is counterproductive ? Get ball rolling and DEAL with repair permit issue!
Yesterday at 7:37am

Ben Wilde: The axe that Monica is grinding seems way sharper than anything used by the NSMBA. The first step towards getting someone to care about the environment is go get someone off of the couch and enjoying the great outdoors. MTB helps get more people active and enjoying nature. Sadly she seems like an irrational fanatic with a warped perspective. I'd hate to be getting her phone calls at the DNV.
October 4 at 11:59pm · Edited

Andrew Charles Eunson: So we should call the park CBSL? I'm down with that.
October 4 at 7:38pm via mobile

Evan Trinier: mother nature owns the woods
October 4 at 1:36pm

Andrew Charles Eunson: Maybe NSMBA should re-open some bat shit crazy trail like Whatchmacallit and re-name the trail The Monica Craver Memorial.
October 4 at 10:05am

Andrew Charles Eunson: Gotta wonder if Monica Craver is not receiving responses to her requests for copies of permits is because people are sick and tired of this person. She will whine and bitch and moan until she is dead.
October 4 at 9:50am

Jason Fuller: What I gather from all that: mountain bikers tend to be reasonable, respectful, and articulate. The rest are an embarrassment to themselves.

It's rather enraging to read, really.
October 3 at 11:49pm

Alex Reid: So much anger...
October 3 at 11:32pm via mobile

Patrick Podolski: Yielding weapons of mass destruction what has she been watching too much CNN?
October 3 at 11:08pm via mobile

Morgan Taylor: I appreciate the well-worded reply, as that is an arena I have very little interest in engaging in.
October 3 at 10:14pm

Brent Hillier: At it again.
October 3 at 10:04pm via mobile

Lee Lau*: ah crazy batshit frog person
October 3 at 11:27pm

Bravo! "Well done", little boys! "Intelligent" arguments, indeed.

BTW,*Lee Lau is a lawyer of some sort (!!?), and the hubby of an ex-Prez of the NSMBA. Both are still hearty supporters of this ass.(ociation)

I rest my case!

Weapons of Mass Destruction said...

In answer to:
Patrick Podolski: Yielding weapons of mass destruction what has she been watching too much CNN?
October 3 at 11:08pm via mobile

Nope! Just reading the "for profit", NSMB.com, not to be confused with the "not for profit" NSMBA...

cerealkilla' 12-14-2012 07:51 PM
Trail building tool question

I recall seeing a picture of some wicked looking trail building tool that was a mix of a shovel, hoe, and rake. It had some mean looking teeth on it, and was very burly. However, I cannot seem to relocate the pics or other information on it. I was hoping to set one up for a friend who does tonnes of trail-building. Much appreciation to anyone that can help me find the pictures of the said tool, or who knows the name of it and where to purchase it.

stillgoing 12-14-2012 08:11 PM
This:

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...58762442_n.jpg

cerealkilla' 12-14-2012 08:14 PM
That's the one! What is this beautiful thing, and where might it be found?

stillgoing 12-14-2012 08:54 PM
We (FVMBA) got them via the Ministry of Forests. We've been giving them away to local builders. They are VERY well received and have a reputation of being **Weapons of mass destruction.**

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...56327267_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...63345389_n.jpg

There you go. It shouldn't take a lot of imagination to figure out what kind of damage those kinds of tools can do on (and off) the trails during "trail days".

Anonymous said...

This Blog is too funny.

Guess what Girlfriend, The North Shore is a world destination for riding. Everyone has heard of it and come from all over to ride here. It pumps tons of money into the local economy, in turn the local politicians will in no way stop that money flow, they will encourage it. You will cry your eyes out and no one will care. Trail maintenance is the only answer, and guess what? That is all sponsored by local business and corps. Its good advertising. Have a nice day

Anonymous said...

" You love dogs, or you would not have a dog walking business. I love dogs too. What do you think about mountain bikers dragging their dogs (even the "toy" size ones - Bichon, etc.) up and down trails,structures, etc. at high speed in all sorts of weather, and even at night time? Many of these rides go on for a couple hours or more...The dogs can end up injured, limping out of the woods, and usually end up with early onset arthritis from the kind of "trail running" the mountain bikers take their pooches on. Dogs in summer end up barely keeping up with their riders, tongues hanging to the ground, yet those loyal pets keep on running --- barely. It is cruel and sick!"


I am so blown away how much Mocreal is an expert on everything are you a vet? Had my dog up on Fromme yesterday. If he could talk he would say he won the doggy lottery. Great times had by all. Btw my pooch is a Tracking hound. He can run all day, no prob. Thanks for your concern

Mocrael said...

Looky here:

http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=97601

Injured Mountain Bike Dogs

"Hey, I just got back from my second trip to my vet in two days. My Aussie Sheperd had a pretty serious accident on the trails. He jumped off of a small drop, which I usually rode but this time I sissied out of and bypassed, and he actually caught up to me and hit the back of my bike, and his back paw was caught in the rear spokes and taken into the brake disc. I felt him hit me, so I was able to stop quick enough to prevent breaking his paw, but he was lacerated pretty badly. Luckily we were about 15 minutes from the bottom, so I tied off the wound, and ran him down the mountain. We were able to get him to the vet within about 30 minutes and were super lucky, a bunch of stitches but no severed tendons, and no major muscle damage. Time will tell, but he's already putting weight on the bandaged leg and we're hoping for a full recovery.

I'm just wondering, how many other people have had dogs with mountain biking injuries, what happened? Any other sporting related injuries? How have they recovered? I've heard of pups with joint problems, but nothing more major then that."

and here:

http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=156534

"Search previous threads on this topic. There are some horror stories of night rides gone bad for dogs (including injury and death) as well as the polar opposite with people saying they wouldn't night ride without their dogs.

For us, we have never taken our dog night riding. It just isn't worth the risks for us and he gets plenty of exercise during the day."
------------------------

If mountain bikers are telling us that their dogs have become injured, or worse, while being "bike run" in the woods, day or night, who are we to argue?

So, let the carnage in the woods continue, unabated, as usual: the ecological vandalism; the injuries (or worse) of bikers and their dogs; the foolish collective mindset that supports this wreckreational activity inside our natural places, etc.

The Truth eventually comes out. Always! 'Nuff said.

Mocrael said...

Looky here:

http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=97601

Injured Mountain Bike Dogs

"Hey, I just got back from my second trip to my vet in two days. My Aussie Sheperd had a pretty serious accident on the trails. He jumped off of a small drop, which I usually rode but this time I sissied out of and bypassed, and he actually caught up to me and hit the back of my bike, and his back paw was caught in the rear spokes and taken into the brake disc. I felt him hit me, so I was able to stop quick enough to prevent breaking his paw, but he was lacerated pretty badly. Luckily we were about 15 minutes from the bottom, so I tied off the wound, and ran him down the mountain. We were able to get him to the vet within about 30 minutes and were super lucky, a bunch of stitches but no severed tendons, and no major muscle damage. Time will tell, but he's already putting weight on the bandaged leg and we're hoping for a full recovery.

I'm just wondering, how many other people have had dogs with mountain biking injuries, what happened? Any other sporting related injuries? How have they recovered? I've heard of pups with joint problems, but nothing more major then that."

and here:

http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=156534

"Search previous threads on this topic. There are some horror stories of night rides gone bad for dogs (including injury and death) as well as the polar opposite with people saying they wouldn't night ride without their dogs.

For us, we have never taken our dog night riding. It just isn't worth the risks for us and he gets plenty of exercise during the day."
------------------------

If mountain bikers are telling us that their dogs have become injured, or worse, while being "bike run" in the woods, day or night, who are we to argue?

So, let the carnage in the woods continue, unabated, as usual: the ecological vandalism; the injuries (or worse) of bikers and their dogs; the foolish collective mindset that supports this wreckreational activity inside our natural places, etc.

The Truth eventually comes out. Always! 'Nuff said.

Anonymous said...

Now its everyone's safety.....

Constant worrying takes a heavy toll. It keeps you up at night and makes you tense and edgy during the day. You hate feeling like a nervous wreck. So why is it so difficult to stop worrying?

For most chronic worriers, the anxious thoughts are fueled by the beliefs—both negative and positive—they hold about worrying.

On the negative side, you may believe that your constant worrying is harmful, that it’s going to drive you crazy or affect your physical health. Or you may worry that you’re going to lose all control over your worrying—that it will take over and never stop.

On the positive side, you may believe that your worrying helps you avoid bad things, prevents problems, prepares you for the worst, or leads to solutions.

Negative beliefs, or worrying about worrying, add to your anxiety and keep worry going. But positive beliefs about worrying can be just as damaging. It’s tough to break the worry habit if you believe that your worrying protects you. In order to stop worry and anxiety for good, you must give up your belief that worrying serves a positive purpose. Once you realize that worrying is the problem, not the solution, you can regain control of your worried mind.

Mocrael said...

What me worry? A mountain biker, Eldon "Fatty" Nelson, gives some "worrying advice" to a roadie:

7. Be prepared to be injured in new and interesting ways. As a road cyclist, you no doubt live in constant terror of road rash.

The good news is, as a mountain biker you'll never have to worry about road rash again.

The bad news is, there are numerous new ways you can be injured while mountain biking:

Branches at eye level: On your road bike, glasses are a good idea. On your mountain bike, they're a really really really really good idea. Really.

Branches at other levels: Have you ever wondered what it would feel like to have a branch catch in the crook of your arm as you blow by at 22 mph? Or to have a branch insert itself between your spokes and fork? You'll find out soon!

Dirt is softer than tarmac, but not much: You've probably already figured out that turfing it on the dirt is going to hurt less than hitting the tarmac. However, when you consider how much more often you're going to fall, that may be small comfort.

You're going to get stupid. By and large, people don't do intentionally stupid things on road bikes. You just ride. This is not the case on mountain bikes. At all. People will look at a nine-foot dropoff and say, "I think I can make it." I'm pretty sure this has to do with all the brainpan rattling.

Nasty creatures: Got room in your jersey pocket for a snakebite kit? Maybe you should make room.

You'll be glad to know, however, that your big, burly mountain bike is built to take the kind of beating you're sure to give it, and it will only rarely have mechanical difficulties.

No, I'm just kidding. Your mountain bike will break as (or more) often as your road bike.

So please, allow me to conclude by welcoming you -- my roadie friends -- into the sport of mountain biking.

I'm sure you're anxious to dive right in.
---------------------

Nope! I will take a pass. Thank you very much...

Anonymous said...

Yes, my apprentice. Release your anger! Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!

Mock Real said...

Lol! :D Maybe my use of a wee bit of dark humour and sarcasm, while trying to educate those who don't mountain bike, has gone over your head.

There are too many mountain bikers who have found the "Dark Side", already. Why would I wish to join them? So much mountain biker anger and hate toward those who DARE question their activities inside our North Shore public forests. No thanks, again. I'll take another pass.

The "people" have spoken. People get the forests they deserve -- not that the forest deserves it. Take care.

Anonymous said...

You are welcome to your perspective Mocrael but what I object to is the disingenuous way you position your opposition to mountain biking. You have used safety, environmental concerns and most recently canine safety as reasons to ban or restrict mountain biking. If you were honest you'd come out and say that you just don't like mountain bikers. Who knows why that is the case but I suspect it was from some unpleasant encounter. There are some rude and unpleasant mountain bikers, just as there are rude and unpleasant members of any group, and it's likely that one or more of these individuals started you on your nonsensical crusade. I'm sorry you were subjected to this but you should know that inconsiderate riders are in the minority. We are not, as you content, all hot headed adrenaline junkies. We volunteer our time to minimize our impact on the environment, stop to allow hikers to pass and try to be courteous to other trail users.

I suspect you haven't actually entered the forest to have a look at the work that has been done in the last few years but if you had I doubt you would mention it. Trail building techniques have come a long way in recent years and if you were to leave your home next to the woods you'd see that we are doing better than ever at creating a sustainable network. An honest person would feel compelled to speak the truth but a zealot has no such compunction.

Your long-standing and myopic focus on mountain biking weakens your position to the point that most everyone has begun to tune you out. I know this for a fact. If the environment is really your concern why do we never hear you speak up about climate change or other issues that have the potential to dramatically affect the world we live in? The answer is that you are no environmentalist, you are a mountain bike hater.

In fact if you were really concerned about the North Shore and the trails here we might hear you talk about hiking trails that are in terrible disrepair. Have you hiked up Mosquito Creek? Mountain bikers don't use this area but the erosion is horrendous. What about the BCMC? Have you heard of it? It's a long steep trail that parallels the Grouse Grind. It was abandoned by the original builders and nor is it maintained by Grouse Mountain who profits from its existence. This trail has multiple lines that are heavily eroded and heavily trafficked but it never sees a mountain bike tire. Why are you not up in arms about this trail?

Nothing anyone says will dissuade you from your nonsensical vendetta but I think it's important for people to know that you are not an environmentalist nor a safety advocate: you are an irrational and cynical hater of mountain biking who will never listen to reason or accept our existence.

My fondest hope is that one of your offspring develops a love for mountain biking. It's an amazing way to stay healthy and, when done responsibly on well-built trails, an incredible way to experience the gifts of nature.

Anonymous said...


Found:
http://twowheeledlocusts.blogspot.ca/

Friends of Mtn.View Park said...

"I cannot teach anybody anything.
I can only make them think."
~ Socrates